The political revival of the Welsh language
It's a shame how things have gone in the last 10yrs regarding Welsh, from being a dead language only spoken by a few in the North West of the country (Snowdonia etc) it has had the political bellows firmly wedged into it, and they have managed to keep the embers burning at great cost to the UK and to the people of Wales.
The economic cost is plain:
- There is no economic benefit to speaking welsh when everyone in Wales speaks English.
- It costs the UK millions and millions to translate all official documents and leaflets into Welsh, when they are already struggling to assist "genuine" non-native English speakers to understand the paperwork they need to complete.
- Assistance provided to the elderly generation who live in the North regions which don't have English as their first language.
- All schools teaching pupils in English.
- Encourage take up of a "genuine" foreign language in school, French, German, Spanish, Chinese, Japanese etc
- After the benefits of a workforce fluent in an international standard language and an equally useful second language are realised, phase out Welsh completely. Leaving Welsh like Cornish and Gaelic, Scots and Latin.
The economic benefits of a workforce which can live and work in other areas of the UK and the world are a key point. I've seen no evidence to support teaching Welsh and reviving it further, everything points to it just being a nationalist political exercise which will do Wales no long term good. Will the Nationalists have the last laugh? or the citizens?
posted by Jon Grant, 東京 @ 13:17
7 Comments
7 Comments:
Right then. Where can I make a start on this little number ???
1.It's a shame how things have gone in the last 10yrs regarding Welsh, from being a dead language only spoken by a few in the North West of the country (Snowdonia etc)
Nope. Wrong. There are more Welsh language in Cardiff than in as you like to say 'Snowdonia'. Now of course you might say, Welsh language education. No, in 1921, there were four times more speakers of Welsh in Cardiff than in Caernarfon.
It has had the political bellows firmly wedged into it, and they have managed to keep the embers burning at great cost to the UK and to the people of Wales.
Great Cost? £40 million a year mate, tops. Do you know how much that accounts for the Welsh government spending in Wales ? 0.284%. The Health budget is 41%. So we only get pennies.
The economic cost is plain:
There is no economic benefit to speaking welsh when everyone in Wales speaks English.
Really? Is there no benefit to speaking Welsh ? There are plenty of benefits to speaking two languages. You can pick up a third or a fourth easier than a monolingual (or as we say around here, the English). Plenty of studies have shown this. The Belgians in Antwerp speak Flemish, French, Dutch and English. One of the richest areas in Europe. So speaking more than a few language is an advantage, no matter how small the pool of speakers are.
It costs the UK millions and millions to translate all official documents and leaflets into Welsh, when they are already struggling to assist "genuine" non-native English speakers to understand the paperwork they need to complete.
But its my right to recieve information in my first language and I pay my taxes just like everybody else.
The strategy which should have been fostered:
Assistance provided to the elderly generation who live in the North regions which don't have English as their first language.
Seriously jon,What planet are you on mate ?
All schools teaching pupils in English.
Encourage take up of a "genuine" foreign language in school, French, German, Spanish, Chinese, Japanese etc
They already are mate. And are doing it much better than the english. There is crisis in Schools in England because take of foreign language is so low.
Then:
After the benefits of a workforce fluent in an international standard language and an equally useful second language are realised, phase out Welsh completely. Leaving Welsh like Cornish and Gaelic, Scots and Latin.
Phase it out, like how mate ? Have kids wear 'Welsh Not' signs around their necks everytime they speak Welsh in class? So you want me to stop talking the language I have spoken for most of my life, the language I speak with my family, mum,dad, Grandparents, uncles, friends and my girlfriend on some unfounded claims of 'economic efficiency' ? Do you envisage someone how the police could arrest me for speaking illegal language ? As Ken Hale said:
"Languages embody the intellectual wealth of the people that speak them. Losing any one of them is like dropping a bomb on the Louvre."
My welsh friends all broadly see Welsh as a waste of learning time when we live in such a connected world where English and another international language would be very useful.
Well I bet those Welsh friends don't speak another language do they? Be honest with me john.
The economic benefits of a workforce which can live and work in other areas of the UK and the world are a key point. I've seen no evidence to support teaching Welsh and reviving it further, everything points to it just being a nationalist political exercise which will do Wales no long term good. Will the Nationalists have the last laugh? or the citizens?
Well mate, I'm a Liberal Democrat and one these 'citizens'. I feel just as strongly about the development of the Welsh language. I will work hard to make sure that Welsh flourishes, including replying to narrow-minded ingorant ingoramus like you.
Hi there. Thanks for your reply. I'll follow your points with my response below.
I don't doubt Welsh in Cardiff is more than it was in the 80s/90s now it is being revived. All my Welsh friends from Cardiff don't speak Welsh. They speak English and other European langues, mostly French. I don't think 1921 has much to do with the current situation.
£40 Million to translate all documents into Welsh from English? That isn't an accurate figure, where did you get it? And what about the loss to industry of English speakers? All those who will only be skilled in Welsh will have to take extra classes when they want to work in the wider world.
There is no benefit to study Welsh, when that same person could be having French, German or other common langue lessons instead. People could pick up 3 common languages instead of 1 dead and 2 common, it doesn't make sense to waste time.
Flemish is basically Dutch, you included them twice. I don't know of any Antwerp residents who are fluent in all 3. Just like Switzerland, most know French or German, plus English. (I only know of two Belgians to check this with)
It's only your first language because the politicians wish to keep it that way. Are there really any Welsh speakers who find English so hard to understand? Even my Welsh friends from Snowdonia who speak Welsh still speak fluent English! I'm not sure if it is your right as such, my polish friend doesn't get their tax coding notice in Polish. Also, when I work aboard I get letters in my second languages.
I'm pleased to hear useful foreign langue are being taught in Wales. It's a shame if England's uptake is really as low as you say. That in itself doesn't justify a different policy for Wales though. As you will know, everywhere from Canada to Australia speaks English, and countries like India which have no common language (not even Hindi) communicate in English between people of each different region.
Schools which teach in Welsh mean children will grow up not being as skilled in English as they could have been. Don't stop people speaking Welsh in their own time, but help everyone get the most out of the opportunity of education.
You don't have to stop speaking your language, and it's not an offence to speak it!. But equally when you visited other places in this world you can't help but notice that they don't speak Welsh, and that other people understand English, and French, German etc. English is linga franca.
Yes, my Welsh friends mostly speak English and French, their lack of fluency in French is probably due to all that time being spent trying to get them to learn Welsh!
Thanks again for the reply, I hope you see there is a wider world out there.. my argument applies to all small regional languages which are on the way out.. Don't take it personal, this is just a weblog ;)
Cheers, Jon
Here we go again, right from the top:
I don't doubt Welsh in Cardiff is more than it was in the 80s/90s now it is being revived. All my Welsh friends from Cardiff don't speak Welsh. They speak English and other European languages, mostly French. I don't think 1921 has much to do with the current situation.
Wrong again.Cardiff has always had a large proportion of Welsh for hundreds of years, it is in Wales after all.
£40 Million to translate all documents into Welsh from English? That isn't an accurate figure, where did you get it?
You misunderstood me. There is more to this than merely translating documents. There is payments for Eisteddfod, language projects etc. The answer is here:
http://wales.gov.uk/publications/accessinfo/DLnewv2/DL1100-1199/1353829/?lang=en
And what about the loss to industry of English speakers? All those who will only be skilled in Welsh will have to take extra classes when they want to work in the wider world.
Again, what the hell ? What extra classes ? I never taken extra classes to improve my English nor anyone else I can think of. I speak,read and write English perfectly well, even better that some of my English-only peers. I read plenty of English language books (again much more than some monolingual English), George Orwell, Jonathan Safren Cohen, Douglas Coupland, J.M Coetzee, Aldous Huxley, Iain Banks,Margaret Atwood, George Sillitoe etc
There is no benefit to study Welsh, when that same person could be having French, German or other common language lessons instead. People could pick up 3 common languages instead of 1 dead and 2 common, it doesn't make sense to waste time.
As Professor Felipe Fernández-Armesto said: ‘any acquired language enriches experience, broadens minds, empowers expression, enhances life’. I have fancied learning Estonian and Hebrew, one day I will because I want to learn about their cultures. But in your line of thinking, these two minority languages we can do away with (If you want to persuade people of Israel to stop reviving a language that was only spoken by a few thousands thirty years ago and learn English instead, well….the best of luck
On top of that, there are 10 times more speakers of Mandarin Chinese than there is of German and French. So, in your line of thinking, do away with German and French and make everybody learn mandarin Chinese instead. Make much more economic sense doesn’t it? Because China is going to be the next economic powerhouse.
It's only your first language because the politicians wish to keep it that way. Are there really any Welsh speakers who find English so hard to understand? Even my Welsh friends from Snowdonia who speak Welsh still speak fluent English!
Eh? Its my first language because I spoke it with my family at home, with friends in my area and the local community. I didn’t get any politicians telling me to speak Welsh. People such as me have been campaigning for years to get things in Welsh, from letters to applications forms because it is much easier for us to deal through the medium of Welsh. Its only the last few years that political parties have begun to take notice.
I'm not sure if it is your right as such ,
Yes it is, laid down
1.in the Declaration of Human Rights of the United Nations: Article 2
2.Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union Article 21
3.Welsh Language Act 1993.
my polish friend doesn't get their tax coding notice in Polish.
That’s because their not in Poland.
I'm pleased to hear useful foreign language are being taught in Wales. It's a shame if England's uptake is really as low as you say. That in itself doesn't justify a different policy for Wales though. As you will know, everywhere from Canada to Australia speaks English, and countries like India which have no common language (not even Hindi) communicate in English between people of each different region.
Ah yes, that proud remnant of British imperialism and American economic power. On top of that, your attitude shows the main problem of low interest of the people in this country to learn another language because people think “Why bother ? Everybody speaks English anyway.”
Schools which teach in Welsh mean children will grow up not being as skilled in English as they could have been. Don't stop people speaking Welsh in their own time, but help everyone get the most out of the opportunity of education.
Well excuse me, I don’t think because I was taught in Welsh doesn’t hold me back or anyone else to that matter. My friends have become journalists, doctors, Cambridge-educated city lawyers, UN Workers and Bio-Chemist researchers were all from a Welsh speaking background and were taught in Welsh school and that never held them back.
But equally when you visited other places in this world you can't help but notice that they don't speak Welsh, and that other people understand English, and French, German etc. English is lingua franca.
Nope I don’t expect them to speak Welsh to me but I don’t expect them to speak English to me either because I am in not in Britain. I don’t want to be associated with those English tourist and ,as Felipe Fernández-Armesto says, ‘the contempt they currently attract as doltish, oafish, lumpish, boorish, brutish and British. ‘
I hope you see there is a wider world out there.. my argument applies to all small regional languages which are on the way out.
I think this applies and your fellow monolingual. Of course there is a big world out there, I have been there you know. When I go out to this ‘big wide world’, I notice the diversity of languages and culture and how important it is to have this diversity. Unfortunately, a lot of people in this country doesn’t see this, they only want to know ‘do they speak English?'
Hi there, thanks for your reply. I reply below:
"Aided by Welsh-medium education and migration from other parts of Wales, the number of Welsh speakers in Cardiff rose by 14,451 between 1991 and 2001; Welsh is now spoken by 11% of Cardiffians." - Source Wikipedia.
11% is tiny. That is hardly what I would call a "large proportion". I expect there are more Europeans in Cardiff than Welsh speakers.
Thank you for the link. That does not include costs of the UK Welsh service, I can get all my documents in Welsh too, from HMRC etc.
Learning to enrich is a valid point. I am learning Latin for instance as a hobby because I am interested in the origins of English and French. I would never advocate anyone tries to revive Latin as a main language, and I would be very disappointed if some nationalist politicians tried to mandate on to us all.
I actually said Chinese in the original post. Location comes in to it as well, so while Chinese, Russian, French, Spanish and English are all good candidates for a popular second language, pick one which is somewhere you will visit.
There are 2.9M people in Wales, of which how many have Welsh as their first language? 1%?
BTW, your English is so good, I do wonder if it is really your second language. Could it be more of an joint first language?
I posted about Scots too recently, I hope you don't think that should be revived as well, only 60k people have any knowledge of it.
On the contrary, I advocate learning more foreign languages, especially useful common ones.
It's lucky your friends speak English well enough to compete in the world economy.
I wonder if you are just anti-English because it originated in England, and Wales lost it's powers to Westminster like Scotland did when the Union was formed.
Do you really think increasing the population of Welsh speakers is a worthy excercise?
I'm not interested in being associated with foreign "beer belly" holiday makers either. But if you visit Swtizerland, Japan, Russia or anywhere else, what language will you in reality communicate in? I know what language everyone starts speaking to me in when I am there. Everyone assumes you speak the international language that English is.
I'm not sure how I could be classed as monolingual when I speak/write in French/English/Japanese, and have knowledge of a couple of other languages like Russian, and Spanish.
Declaration of Human Rights of the United Nations: Article 2 - this doesn't seem to support your claim. I don't doubt the Welsh Language Act does though.
Re your final point, I speak French when I am in France, I get the first word in as it's more fun to speak in French ;) I go for English when in China ass I don't speak it, or Germany, or Italy etc. You may be surprised to hear that nearly everyone in Holland, Denmark, Sweden, Iceland and Norway speaks fluent English. You may not like an integrated world, but that is progress, and you can't stop progress unless you get Nationalist politicians mandating the language!
You may be interested to see my other post: Political revival of Scots Gaelic
I predict in a few years time you will give up this Welsh advocacy, and accept that people will consolidate and speak more popular languages like Chinese, English, French etc.
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Jon,
I think you're the one living in la-la land. The Welsh language is alive and kicking in many parts of Wales - and yes, that includes Cardiff. 30,000+ speakers is not insignificant, and I would hazard a guess that a large percentage of this figure are first language Welsh speakers. People are crying out for Welsh language schools in Cardiff. What have you to say to that?
And no matter what you say, no laws or political gestures can in themsleves make people speak a language. They can certainly help to create a climate whereby that language can be used more normally on a day to day basis, but not force anyone to speak it. Are you insinuating that Welsh people are automatons, susceptible to brainwashing by our AMs and MPs? Surely not?
It is the will of the people that speak a language if they speak it. It is the will of 600,000 people living in Wales (and many more outside). If you want to believe that that is a dead language, then so be it. But don't expect anybody to take you seriously!
nwdls,
Going on to your comment about Welsh, the development of the next generation is at stake here, we have to give them a solid start and limiting people to living in a section of Wales which speaks Welsh is far from ideal.
And then there are the Welsh dialects, the difference between North and South.
611,000 speakers nationally is a large number, 20% of the population, the revival indicated on Wikipedia has been successful by the politicians.
Regarding Cardiff, yes the revival in Cardiff is doing well.. 30,000+ of a proportion of 317,500 is only 11%. How many of those really do *only* understand Welsh? 11% can't be used as a rationale for increasing Welsh speaking. Next you'll be expecting everyone in the former English county of Monmouthshire to be forced to take up Welsh speaking.
Learning any language is better than no language. But learning a viable one which many many other people know how to speak/write in both he UK, Europe, Americas and Asia will always be the best option. The only case where a minority language is needed is when there is an existing population who can't be communicated with, an example is the many different languages in India. The government need to have local officials who can actually speak each of the languages.
I do agree with you on your final point, the people will decide, let's hope the political influence doesn't affect it too much along that journey. As Scotland is still moving in the best direction
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